You might, like I, remember your dean and other faculty members as having had great influence in building your talent and exemplifying skill in truly calm and deliberative debate. But about two weeks ago, Khylee Quince, the Dean of AUT Law School, posted on social media the above ‘go die’ condemnation of Gary Judd KC, after publication of Judd KC’s essay in LawNews on May 3, explaining his move to protect law students (as he sees it) from an education infused with extra-legal indoctrination. Whether you agree with Judd KC or not, no lawyer should mistake such insults for actual debate.
By way of background, the New Zealand Council of Legal Education has decreed that tikanga Māori will become a non-elective component in legal education (like torts and contract, say) from next year. Judd KC has laid a complaint to the government committee which oversees such delegated legislation. The complaint is designed to set in train a motion for the disallowance of the compulsory tikanga regulation. Thus, substantial debate amongst the legal profession is to be expected.
This piece is not to debate the subject of tikanga, but rather to prompt reflection on how we engage with different viewpoints. The Quince reaction has left me pondering on the way some lawyers and other professionals seem to have forgotten what true debate actually entails and have even lost the ability to engage in meaningful debate altogether.
‘Debate’ in Iran
My own respect for the value of debate was shaped in a country where there is no respect for debate, that country being the Islamic Republic of Iran.
The Iranian regime explicitly seeks the demise of its enemies. We remember the promotion of the (nearly-successful) murder of author Salman Rushdie, for example. The Iranian dictatorship shows, I would suggest, that departure from disciplined debate can drag the undisciplined into violent rhetoric, making our society a more extreme and dangerous place – intellectually and physically. Wishing death upon your opponents not infrequently also silences them, an objective of regimes and hot-headed individuals alike. So it is deeply alarming to me now to hear Establishment voices in this country mimicking the intemperate language of merciless dictatorships.
Words and logic
My father, a seasoned lawyer and judge, and my mentor (a Ms Sotoudeh, now a political prisoner for more than a decade), both instilled in me a profound respect for the art of argument. They taught me that true strength lies in using words and logic to engage and persuade, not to belittle or insult. My mentor’s admonition resonates often: “Your words will either attract the strong-minded and engage them, or offend the weak. But you should never be silenced because you fear how others might perceive you.”
In Iran, dissenting voices are often met with harsh punishment, like hanging, stoning and public lashing – all of which I have personally witnessed. So I learned to navigate life through a constrictive prism of fear and pessimism. Persecution for merely expressing disagreement with the status quo (resulting in my repeated arrest) made it clear that staying in Iran could be fatal. More than the threat to me, the toll each incident took upon my family was heartbreaking.
Casting an eye back, I can report from my experience in the Middle East that “go-and-die” language is (not inappositely mixing metaphors, perhaps) the unstable ledge just above the slippery slope to much worse. But that life also impelled me to get as far away from “debate control”, and the language thereof, as I could.
Rape threat
In coming to New Zealand, I was driven by the hope of finding a society where diverse opinions were not just tolerated, but valued. Upon arriving here, I was determined to embrace the freedom to debate in achieving better public policy. Thus my career in criminal law has frequently led me into publicly arguing about legislative proposals.
One such campaign was against the recent Labour/Green-led group-think that resulted in the Sexual Violence (Legislation) Act, which makes the conviction of innocent defendants more likely.
Despite warnings that the campaign might attract unpleasant personal consequences, I chose to speak out. And the backlash was severe, including vicious emails wishing physical harm upon me.
For instance, following the publication of one of my articles on the then-bill, I received a reprehensible message suggesting that I should not be writing articles, but instead be raped. To me, that message and its maker underlined the severity of declining decorum in proper debates. The campaign, however, also drew support from those who recognised the importance of addressing difficult issues and reinforced my belief that engaging with tough topics is crucial.
Another disturbing thing I noticed in that campaign was that the New Zealand Establishment seems, like the Iranian regime, to have come to the view that, on many issues, there is only one true opinion and that other opinions should be silenced. The silencing is done with belittlement (such as labelling opponents “racist” and “sexist”), “deplatforming” and ultimately “cancellation”.
Protecting debate
Critics have, of course, labelled The Law Association’s LawNews publication of Judd KC’s piece (and the piece itself) as “racist” and “anti-Māori”.
This reaction is particularly concerning when it comes from within the legal profession – one that fundamentally should uphold robust debate and the thoughtful exchange of ideas.
I take great pride, however, in being part of an association that steadfastly avoids censoring views, respecting instead well-reasoned argument and allowing individuals to express their perspectives in a rational and courteous manner. This platform of open discourse is something I cherish.
In this context, the response from The Māori Law Society merits recognition for its reasoned and respectful tone. Such a response provides a commendable example of how to engage with contrary viewpoints. As highlighted by the reaction to Judd KC’s recent article in LawNews, there is a palpable need for platforms that facilitate thoughtful discourse. It is imperative for those who disagree with Judd KC’s opinions to see this as an opportunity to contribute constructively. I urge anyone who felt “offended” by his arguments to respond with a well-reasoned rebuttal for publication. This approach not only showcases the critical skill of persuasive discourse that is essential for any lawyer, but also reinforces the principle that differing views should be approached with logic and civility, rather than disdain or derogation.
Future lawyers
Khylee Quince’s belittlement of Judd KC raises important questions about the lessons we impart to the next generation of lawyers. Are we equipping them to confront and counter challenging viewpoints effectively? Or are we teaching them to resort to personal attacks?
Law school moots are designed to prepare future legal minds for exactly this type of engagement. Yet, the prevalent response to opposing views appears increasingly to be one of shutting down dialogue and hastily assigning belittlements of the “racist” or “sexist” flavour. As an aside, I would note that Quince seems unencumbered by any insight as to irony, engaging as she does in “ageism”, at least in regard to “old dinosaurs”.
I volunteer from time to time as a mentor to law students. So I remind myself often that the role of educators and mentors is to instil values of respect, critical thinking and persuasive argument in our future lawyers. It is our duty to prepare them for a professional life filled with diverse opinions, encouraging them to address disagreements with intellectual rigour and personal integrity. This approach is integral to maintaining a robust legal community.
It is crucial that we do not encourage the next generation to resort to cruelty or dismissiveness. Engaging in reasoned debate when faced with differing opinions is essential. By fostering an environment where respectful dialogue is the norm, we prepare them better for a world where facing confronting perspectives is inevitable.
Embracing this approach not only enriches our understanding but also ensures we contribute positively to their development. I tell students, “always remember; you don’t win a debate by suppressing discussion – you win it with a better argument”. Alas, Dean Khylee Quince apparently also needs this reminder.
Samira Taghavi is a barrister and practice manager at Active Legal Solutions and a member of The Law Association’s council and Criminal Law committee. This article was first published HERE
This piece is not to debate the subject of tikanga, but rather to prompt reflection on how we engage with different viewpoints. The Quince reaction has left me pondering on the way some lawyers and other professionals seem to have forgotten what true debate actually entails and have even lost the ability to engage in meaningful debate altogether.
‘Debate’ in Iran
My own respect for the value of debate was shaped in a country where there is no respect for debate, that country being the Islamic Republic of Iran.
The Iranian regime explicitly seeks the demise of its enemies. We remember the promotion of the (nearly-successful) murder of author Salman Rushdie, for example. The Iranian dictatorship shows, I would suggest, that departure from disciplined debate can drag the undisciplined into violent rhetoric, making our society a more extreme and dangerous place – intellectually and physically. Wishing death upon your opponents not infrequently also silences them, an objective of regimes and hot-headed individuals alike. So it is deeply alarming to me now to hear Establishment voices in this country mimicking the intemperate language of merciless dictatorships.
Words and logic
My father, a seasoned lawyer and judge, and my mentor (a Ms Sotoudeh, now a political prisoner for more than a decade), both instilled in me a profound respect for the art of argument. They taught me that true strength lies in using words and logic to engage and persuade, not to belittle or insult. My mentor’s admonition resonates often: “Your words will either attract the strong-minded and engage them, or offend the weak. But you should never be silenced because you fear how others might perceive you.”
In Iran, dissenting voices are often met with harsh punishment, like hanging, stoning and public lashing – all of which I have personally witnessed. So I learned to navigate life through a constrictive prism of fear and pessimism. Persecution for merely expressing disagreement with the status quo (resulting in my repeated arrest) made it clear that staying in Iran could be fatal. More than the threat to me, the toll each incident took upon my family was heartbreaking.
Casting an eye back, I can report from my experience in the Middle East that “go-and-die” language is (not inappositely mixing metaphors, perhaps) the unstable ledge just above the slippery slope to much worse. But that life also impelled me to get as far away from “debate control”, and the language thereof, as I could.
Rape threat
In coming to New Zealand, I was driven by the hope of finding a society where diverse opinions were not just tolerated, but valued. Upon arriving here, I was determined to embrace the freedom to debate in achieving better public policy. Thus my career in criminal law has frequently led me into publicly arguing about legislative proposals.
One such campaign was against the recent Labour/Green-led group-think that resulted in the Sexual Violence (Legislation) Act, which makes the conviction of innocent defendants more likely.
Despite warnings that the campaign might attract unpleasant personal consequences, I chose to speak out. And the backlash was severe, including vicious emails wishing physical harm upon me.
For instance, following the publication of one of my articles on the then-bill, I received a reprehensible message suggesting that I should not be writing articles, but instead be raped. To me, that message and its maker underlined the severity of declining decorum in proper debates. The campaign, however, also drew support from those who recognised the importance of addressing difficult issues and reinforced my belief that engaging with tough topics is crucial.
Another disturbing thing I noticed in that campaign was that the New Zealand Establishment seems, like the Iranian regime, to have come to the view that, on many issues, there is only one true opinion and that other opinions should be silenced. The silencing is done with belittlement (such as labelling opponents “racist” and “sexist”), “deplatforming” and ultimately “cancellation”.
Protecting debate
Critics have, of course, labelled The Law Association’s LawNews publication of Judd KC’s piece (and the piece itself) as “racist” and “anti-Māori”.
This reaction is particularly concerning when it comes from within the legal profession – one that fundamentally should uphold robust debate and the thoughtful exchange of ideas.
I take great pride, however, in being part of an association that steadfastly avoids censoring views, respecting instead well-reasoned argument and allowing individuals to express their perspectives in a rational and courteous manner. This platform of open discourse is something I cherish.
In this context, the response from The Māori Law Society merits recognition for its reasoned and respectful tone. Such a response provides a commendable example of how to engage with contrary viewpoints. As highlighted by the reaction to Judd KC’s recent article in LawNews, there is a palpable need for platforms that facilitate thoughtful discourse. It is imperative for those who disagree with Judd KC’s opinions to see this as an opportunity to contribute constructively. I urge anyone who felt “offended” by his arguments to respond with a well-reasoned rebuttal for publication. This approach not only showcases the critical skill of persuasive discourse that is essential for any lawyer, but also reinforces the principle that differing views should be approached with logic and civility, rather than disdain or derogation.
Future lawyers
Khylee Quince’s belittlement of Judd KC raises important questions about the lessons we impart to the next generation of lawyers. Are we equipping them to confront and counter challenging viewpoints effectively? Or are we teaching them to resort to personal attacks?
Law school moots are designed to prepare future legal minds for exactly this type of engagement. Yet, the prevalent response to opposing views appears increasingly to be one of shutting down dialogue and hastily assigning belittlements of the “racist” or “sexist” flavour. As an aside, I would note that Quince seems unencumbered by any insight as to irony, engaging as she does in “ageism”, at least in regard to “old dinosaurs”.
I volunteer from time to time as a mentor to law students. So I remind myself often that the role of educators and mentors is to instil values of respect, critical thinking and persuasive argument in our future lawyers. It is our duty to prepare them for a professional life filled with diverse opinions, encouraging them to address disagreements with intellectual rigour and personal integrity. This approach is integral to maintaining a robust legal community.
It is crucial that we do not encourage the next generation to resort to cruelty or dismissiveness. Engaging in reasoned debate when faced with differing opinions is essential. By fostering an environment where respectful dialogue is the norm, we prepare them better for a world where facing confronting perspectives is inevitable.
Embracing this approach not only enriches our understanding but also ensures we contribute positively to their development. I tell students, “always remember; you don’t win a debate by suppressing discussion – you win it with a better argument”. Alas, Dean Khylee Quince apparently also needs this reminder.
Samira Taghavi is a barrister and practice manager at Active Legal Solutions and a member of The Law Association’s council and Criminal Law committee. This article was first published HERE
8 comments:
Sadly New Zealand has become a nation where identity politics, critical race theory and tokenism to virtue are valued higher than actual debate and reason.
New Zealand used to be a nation where the idea was played not the man.
Now of course with the encouragement of the last government who saw life through the singular SJW, cultural marxist lens, the MSM who do the same and are highly complicit if not actual players and the Public Service, local government and educational institutes from primary to tertiary who seem filled with the same ideology, New Zealand is mired by only playing the man.
The denegration, cancellation and outcasting of the person who disagrees is the calling of the left and occurs primarily because they have no cognisant, cohesive fact based arguement to provide to the discourse. Their only arguement is to damage the other person somehow.
We see the evidence of this daily from the likes of Labour, the Greens, the Maori party and the MSM alongside the Trans/SJW communitys and anyone in between that considers themselves a left leaning progressive.
These people belittle, they shout and scream and rage against any idea or thought that they either disagree with or cannot intellectually fathom.
Violence follows them and theirs as a part of the tantrum as Posie Parker found out in Albert Park as the police stood by.
People like Quince are way off their mandate and the outcome for society from folk that espouse statements like she has in regard to Judd etc. is a grim future filled with hate and rage and sadly in the end violence as we see in countries like Iran.
I doubt that these people have stopped to think that left or right of any particular spectrum, you always reap what you sow but sometimes the crop is rotten like the seeds you originally sowed.
Khylee Quince wouldn’t make a lawyer’s backside, and should be drummed out of the Academy for her vile ad hominem comments.
“The Iranian dictatorship shows, I would suggest, that departure from disciplined debate can drag the undisciplined into violent rhetoric, making our society a more extreme and dangerous place – intellectually and physically.”
This is because doctrinaire Islamists believe that questioning received dogma is intolerable blasphemy against Allah and the words and example of Muhammad.
Punishable by death.
The secular social religion of Marxism is just as intolerant of dissent, and if it ever attains power, just as murderous.
Samira, this old soldier is full of admiration and respect for your philosophy and the lucid way in which you explain it. Your life experience has given you a profound understanding of the evils that await if we continue down the path of extreme and intolerant ideology. As Anna has expressed above, our nation is on a precipice and people like Quince are working diligently to push us over the edge. She is not alone, as the last term of Parliament shows us. I fear for our future, but there is some hope of fighting back with people such as you speaking out.
A very thoughtful, balanced piece. I agree with Samira, but unfortunately even the most carefully thought out reasoning is sometimes not enough for a democratic outcome.
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom based on real, relevant experience.
It seems to me that in 'western' countries the cancel culture, 'play the man not the issue' approaches, while always present for less thoughtful or educated people, was modelled and spread by feminists to become the norm for 'leftist' causes. Women's causes were considered so sacrosanct that anyone disagreeing was belittled, blacklisted and/or his/her career ruined. Feminists demanded the cancellation of venues, demanded the banning of groups expressing views different from theirs (e.g. at universities), harassed those attending groups or talks, drowned out speakers, set off fire alarms and caused or threatened disorder to stop events from proceeding. They continue to do so. The approach was extended to race matters then to gender identity among other smaller causes. Ardern's lot applied it to the insufficiently-researched mRNA vaccine that really did deserve debate. It's irony that feminists are now calling 'unfair' when similar tactics are used against them by proponents of a subsequent cause considered sacrosanct. As you point out, leftist causes generally adopted similar ad hominem approaches, as they always did in Marxist regimes. Those pushing earlier righteous causes soon become the useful idiots sacrificed for the latest cause.
I expect Dean Quince was at some time as vocal, intolerant and unreasonable in support of feminism.
It's so important to be calling this out. It's so important to stop leaders in academia, and indeed the academic institutions, from extending such ignorance.
The problem is that such intolerance, if unchecked , leads to violence. In Europe any discussion of Islam is 'ultra vires and void' and those that have spoken up have been killed. There is thus no public discussion nor any objective academic research into Islam. The same intolerance was shown in NZ during the covid scare and continues with anthropogenic climate change and any open discussion of Maori problems. Unless we are very very careful the ability to openly debate issues, something the Greeks championed 2,500 years ago, is being lost in NZ.
Thank you very much for this Samira. I suspect we're much closer than we acknowledge to becoming a society where voices are legally silenced.
Your background and experience is truly valuable we'd do well to shout it from the rooftops.
Ken Maclaren
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