What was it that Mr Speaker said during Question Time? That Labour’s Willie Jackson – correction, the Honourable Willie Jackson – had not settled a bet with him?
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Our reading of Hansard says yes, Gerry Brownlee did say that. But our reading of the newspapers this morning suggests the hacks in the Parliamentary Press Gallery did not hear it or, if they did, were uninterested in pursuing it.
The matter of the bet popped into considerations while ACT leader David Seymour was relishing the chance to enthuse about his work with Pharmac in response to a patsy question from party colleague Todd Stephenson.
His answer included mention of the one-law-for-all principle that underpins ACT’s rejection of race-based preferences for Maori.
Back in 2024, my letter of expectations to Pharmac made clear they should be improving health outcomes using robust data and evidence. I said they should serve New Zealanders based on actual need without assigning their background as a proxy for need.
Earlier this month I was very pleased to welcome Pharmac’s decision to welcome access to three medicines for people with type 2 diabetes from 1 September. That access will be wider and it will apply to all patients based on clinical need, because never again should two patients go to see their doctor with the exact same clinical need and be treated differently because of who their ancestors were.
We want one law for all and one future together—not racial discrimination in our policy.
Stephenson asked how else Pharmac was responding to Government policy.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Pharmac has ongoing work to give effect to the Government’s Cabinet circular, meeting the expectation that the target and commissioning and design of public services should be based on the needs of all New Zealanders.
As of 13 August—the date of their last quarterly report of progress to meet my latest letter of expectations—Pharmac reports that it’s formalised its access criteria within the pharmaceutical schedule. This new approach ensures target patient populations are clearly defined form the outset, ensuring everyone in the group has access to—
Apparently this was too much for Jackson, a fellow who strongly approves of special programmes and privileges for Maori.
Hon Willie Jackson: Oh rubbish—what a load of rubbish.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —the medicine. Pharmac reports that it’s reviewing all access criteria where—
Hon Willie Jackson: Oh rubbish.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —there are ethnicity-based elements, with a view to removing or replacing them with clinical—
Hon Willie Jackson: Sit down.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —criteria. I hear Willie Jackson saying “what a load of rubbish”, and “sit down”—these are facts, Mr Jackson. Number one, Pharmac is moving to funding by clinical need, and, number two, racism is wrong.
Hon Willie Jackson: Why don’t you come and debate it? You’re too scared.
Stephenson asked for even more information about his leader’s most recent letter of expectations.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well, in my latest letter of expectations to Pharmac, I’ve set clear expectations for Pharmac to continue delivering more efficiently the medicines and medical technologies that Kiwis need. I’ve asked them to ensure assessment, procurement, and exceptional circumstances work continues at pace to support access to medicines.
Of particular importance, I have asked Pharmac to continue its work in the wider health, social, and fiscal impacts of funding decisions. For example, diabetes is just one condition where the economic benefit to New Zealand of drug treatment versus simple pharmaceutical cost can be measured in the years of dialysis avoided, kidney transplants avoided or delayed, savings to the Health NZ budget, a person’s ability to work and earn taxable income, and reduced need for disability or other support.
By starting to think about all the benefits of medication, we can ensure that we optimally fund medication to help as many New Zealanders as possible.
And then …
Point of order, Mr Speaker.
SPEAKER: The point of order is?
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: As I was beginning this excellent answer, I heard Willie Jackson say, “You won’t debate, because you’re too scared.” I think that’s a very sad reflection on you, Mr Speaker, and he should be asked to withdraw it.
Hon Willie Jackson: I stand by that. I stand by that.
SPEAKER: I was aware that Mr Jackson was making various statements. I could not actually hear them.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well, he just said he stands by it.
SPEAKER: He does stand by it?
Hon Willie Jackson: Yeah, I do.
This triggered the remark from Speaker Brownlee which – in PoO’s judgement – should have whetted the Press Gallery’s curiosity.
SPEAKER: Well, Willie, I’ve been in circumstances where I’ve tried to debate you. In fact, in 1999, I wanted to have a debate; we ended up having a bet over it. You lost it, and you’ve never paid it, so I won’t be engaging that further.
Having found no elaboration in the daily newspapers, PoO turned to Google’s IT gadgetry.
We were told:
There is no public record or media report of New Zealand Labour MP Willie Jackson placing or taking a bet with Parliament’s Speaker, Gerry Brownlee. [1]
While Jackson has frequently clashed with political opponents and received warnings or ejections from Brownlee in the House (such as during debates over the Treaty Principles Bill), no wagering event or bet has ever been recorded between them. [1, 2]
PoO checked the citations and was reminded by Stuff the Jackson made had said Seymour, who had gotten out of his seat to talk to Education Minister Erica Stanford, was a liar and disgrace to the House.
The Speaker asked Jackson to withdraw and apologise, and he refused.
He left the House under instruction from the Speaker, Gerry Brownlee.
We remain puzzled by Brownlee’s mention of a bet.
Bob Edlin is a veteran journalist and editor for the Point of Order blog HERE. - where this article was sourced.
His answer included mention of the one-law-for-all principle that underpins ACT’s rejection of race-based preferences for Maori.
Back in 2024, my letter of expectations to Pharmac made clear they should be improving health outcomes using robust data and evidence. I said they should serve New Zealanders based on actual need without assigning their background as a proxy for need.
Earlier this month I was very pleased to welcome Pharmac’s decision to welcome access to three medicines for people with type 2 diabetes from 1 September. That access will be wider and it will apply to all patients based on clinical need, because never again should two patients go to see their doctor with the exact same clinical need and be treated differently because of who their ancestors were.
We want one law for all and one future together—not racial discrimination in our policy.
Stephenson asked how else Pharmac was responding to Government policy.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Pharmac has ongoing work to give effect to the Government’s Cabinet circular, meeting the expectation that the target and commissioning and design of public services should be based on the needs of all New Zealanders.
As of 13 August—the date of their last quarterly report of progress to meet my latest letter of expectations—Pharmac reports that it’s formalised its access criteria within the pharmaceutical schedule. This new approach ensures target patient populations are clearly defined form the outset, ensuring everyone in the group has access to—
Apparently this was too much for Jackson, a fellow who strongly approves of special programmes and privileges for Maori.
Hon Willie Jackson: Oh rubbish—what a load of rubbish.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —the medicine. Pharmac reports that it’s reviewing all access criteria where—
Hon Willie Jackson: Oh rubbish.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —there are ethnicity-based elements, with a view to removing or replacing them with clinical—
Hon Willie Jackson: Sit down.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: —criteria. I hear Willie Jackson saying “what a load of rubbish”, and “sit down”—these are facts, Mr Jackson. Number one, Pharmac is moving to funding by clinical need, and, number two, racism is wrong.
Hon Willie Jackson: Why don’t you come and debate it? You’re too scared.
Stephenson asked for even more information about his leader’s most recent letter of expectations.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well, in my latest letter of expectations to Pharmac, I’ve set clear expectations for Pharmac to continue delivering more efficiently the medicines and medical technologies that Kiwis need. I’ve asked them to ensure assessment, procurement, and exceptional circumstances work continues at pace to support access to medicines.
Of particular importance, I have asked Pharmac to continue its work in the wider health, social, and fiscal impacts of funding decisions. For example, diabetes is just one condition where the economic benefit to New Zealand of drug treatment versus simple pharmaceutical cost can be measured in the years of dialysis avoided, kidney transplants avoided or delayed, savings to the Health NZ budget, a person’s ability to work and earn taxable income, and reduced need for disability or other support.
By starting to think about all the benefits of medication, we can ensure that we optimally fund medication to help as many New Zealanders as possible.
And then …
Point of order, Mr Speaker.
SPEAKER: The point of order is?
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: As I was beginning this excellent answer, I heard Willie Jackson say, “You won’t debate, because you’re too scared.” I think that’s a very sad reflection on you, Mr Speaker, and he should be asked to withdraw it.
Hon Willie Jackson: I stand by that. I stand by that.
SPEAKER: I was aware that Mr Jackson was making various statements. I could not actually hear them.
Hon DAVID SEYMOUR: Well, he just said he stands by it.
SPEAKER: He does stand by it?
Hon Willie Jackson: Yeah, I do.
This triggered the remark from Speaker Brownlee which – in PoO’s judgement – should have whetted the Press Gallery’s curiosity.
SPEAKER: Well, Willie, I’ve been in circumstances where I’ve tried to debate you. In fact, in 1999, I wanted to have a debate; we ended up having a bet over it. You lost it, and you’ve never paid it, so I won’t be engaging that further.
Having found no elaboration in the daily newspapers, PoO turned to Google’s IT gadgetry.
We were told:
There is no public record or media report of New Zealand Labour MP Willie Jackson placing or taking a bet with Parliament’s Speaker, Gerry Brownlee. [1]
While Jackson has frequently clashed with political opponents and received warnings or ejections from Brownlee in the House (such as during debates over the Treaty Principles Bill), no wagering event or bet has ever been recorded between them. [1, 2]
PoO checked the citations and was reminded by Stuff the Jackson made had said Seymour, who had gotten out of his seat to talk to Education Minister Erica Stanford, was a liar and disgrace to the House.
The Speaker asked Jackson to withdraw and apologise, and he refused.
He left the House under instruction from the Speaker, Gerry Brownlee.
We remain puzzled by Brownlee’s mention of a bet.
Bob Edlin is a veteran journalist and editor for the Point of Order blog HERE. - where this article was sourced.
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