The famous “cucumber versus grape” experiment, popularised in a TED Talk clip, has often been cited as evidence that beneath the surface, all creatures (including humans) harbour socialist instincts. The experiment involved capuchin monkeys performing a simple task: when rewarded with cucumber slices, they were content—until they saw another monkey receive grapes for the same effort. Suddenly, the cucumber was rejected, thrown back at the researcher in protest.
At first glance, this seems to prove that fairness, equality, and resentment of unequal reward are hardwired into biology. But the conclusion is far less straightforward than the socialist narrative suggests.
The Flaw in the Argument
The obvious flaw is that capuchin monkeys simply prefer grapes to cucumbers. Grapes are sweeter, more desirable, and biologically more rewarding. The protest was not a principled stand for equality; it was frustration at being shortchanged.
If socialism were truly at work, the grape-fed monkey would have shared its bounty with the cucumber-fed one. But that never happened. The experiment revealed envy, not solidarity. It showed the instinct to demand more, not the instinct to redistribute.
What If the Rules Changed?
The experiment also leaves unanswered questions:
- Unearned Rewards: What if one monkey received grapes without performing any task at all? Would the cucumber-fed monkey complain? Almost certainly.
- Unequal Exchange: What if the grape-fed monkey gave two stones for every one the cucumber-fed monkey offered? Would resentment grow? Again, almost certainly.
The Deeper Lesson
What the cucumber-versus-grape experiment truly demonstrates is not socialism, but the biological roots of envy and status comparison. Creatures, human and non-human alike, measure themselves against others. They resent being given less, but they rarely demand redistribution from those who have more.
This distinction matters:
- Socialism claims that inequality itself is intolerable and must be corrected through enforced redistribution.
- The monkeys show that inequality is tolerated until it feels unfair, and even then, the instinct is protest—not collective sharing.
The experiment is often misused as propaganda for egalitarian ideology. But in reality, it undermines it:
- Consumerism Parallel: Just as monkeys reject cucumbers when grapes are visible, humans reject sufficiency when luxury is flaunted.
- Identity Politics Parallel: Groups protest perceived unfairness but rarely share their own advantages with others.
- Utopian Ideologies: The dream of universal equality collapses when individuals instinctively prefer “grapes” and resist giving them away.
Cucumbers vs. Grapes: Monkey Experiment vs. Socialism

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- The monkey experiment demonstrates envy and status comparison, not socialism.
- Socialism misreads resentment as solidarity, but the monkeys never redistribute.
- The true lesson: resentment is natural, redistribution is rare.
Conclusion
The cucumber-versus-grape experiment is not proof of socialism; it is proof of status anxiety. It shows that creatures resent being given less, but it does not show any instinct to share more.
If anything, it is a warning: utopian ideologies that mistake envy for solidarity will always misread reality. The monkeys did not build socialism in their cages. They simply threw cucumbers back in protest.
And that is the real lesson: resentment is easy, redistribution is rare.
Colinxy regularly blogs at No Minister, This article was sourced HERE
The cucumber-versus-grape experiment is not proof of socialism; it is proof of status anxiety. It shows that creatures resent being given less, but it does not show any instinct to share more.
If anything, it is a warning: utopian ideologies that mistake envy for solidarity will always misread reality. The monkeys did not build socialism in their cages. They simply threw cucumbers back in protest.
And that is the real lesson: resentment is easy, redistribution is rare.
Colinxy regularly blogs at No Minister, This article was sourced HERE

11 comments:
The one requirement of a successful society is to have, as New Zealand had, for many years, laws providing equality for all under the law and an equal starting point with access to health, education and jobs. We can't ever guarantee all people will end up with the same wealth, lifestyle benefits and happiness. That is due to many factors including family, health issues,
and motivation. This egalitarianism has been eroded over the last few years as a small percentage of the population have acquired the "envy gene." Not the "altruistic gene" as they portray themselves in public. Unity, not division, makes a country successful.
The way NZ achieved egalitarianism in the past was through education . Particularly traditional education that treated everyone as equal and entitled and capable of achieving to their full potential in the basics, anyway . This meant Universal Literacy and Numeracy which my mother witnessed being practised in the 1930s and 40s in Scottish Dunedin. Also there was the view Jack was as good as his master.
It was difficult to acquire secondary education without having finance but the standard of those who completed primary was comparable in many ways to the average 15 year old leaver now .
The basis of traditional education was classical and Christian values .
By this we are not monkeys with primitive selfish instincts but all made in the image of God and ideally to accordingly treat each other with respect and dignity and encouraged to aspire to higher ideals like altruism which is uncommon and unnatural in the materialistic world.
Progressive education, based in atheism and materialistic socialism has produced the disaster we now have in education with NZ having the longest tail of underachievement resulting in a great underclass doomed to welfare and low paid jobs or jail where illiteracy
rates are high .
Socialism has produced that.George Orwell in 1984 warned of Fabian socialism one of the sources of foundational ideas in Progressivism
in politics and education.
>"It was difficult to acquire secondary education without having finance"
NZ secondary education goes back to the 19thC when kids from poor families could get scholarships to attend Grammar schools. During the 1930s there was a move towards universal secondary education - the Primary Leaving Cert, which had been the gateway between primary and secondary, was abolished in 1936.
>"...we are not monkeys with primitive selfish instincts but all made in the image of God"
Straw man alert - nobody says we are 'monkeys'. Although I'd rather be a monkey than have a character derived from a vicious little tribal spook dating back to Bronze Age Palestine.
>"...higher ideals like altruism which is uncommon and unnatural in the materialistic world."
As usual, the ignorance comes through. Altruism was a challenge for biology until the 1970s when the sociobiological approach and the focus on the gene pool (being all genes carried by the gametes of an interbreeding population) resolved the mystery. The problem had been that natural selection would be assumed to act against any 'altruism gene' but it was then realised that it 'pays' (in neo-Darwinian terms) for an individual with a poor chance of mating to sacrifice itself for the sake of a gene pool with which it shares many genetic attributes.
I won't comment on the usual specious diatribe about "materialistic socialism" and the evils of 'progressive education'. The expression that comes to my mind is "idée fixe".
It's the difference between a level of discussion that belongs to the domain of higher education and that which belongs to the kindergarten.
PS Let me just add to the above that altruism in Nature is usually associated with young males courting danger (such as through sentinel systems) or other reckless (to use an anthropomorphism) behaviour. Their populations usually being hierarchical with a few dominant males doing all the breeding, altruism is a better bet from the point of view of leaving a genetic legacy than hoping to be able to mate (needless to say, these considerations are not consciously entertained by the organisms!)
I have no idea how this got onto the god-argument, especially so quickly.
The premise is to refute this experiment's hypothesis that capuchin monkeys are "really socialists". Which is more of a dig against modern-day Lysenkoism, though I did not make an explicit connection.
The delusion of Lysenkoism is that nature is "secretly socialist", which includes agricultural plants (they don't compete with each other apparently). Tens of millions of people died because of that enforced belief.
Lysenkoism being the biological pseudoscience foundation of early USSR and Communist China.
Ergo, when these people used capuchin monkeys as "proof" of socialism, they're admitting they believe in Lysenkoism.
(Even if capuchin monkeys were actually secret socialists, it wouldn't imply humans were also secret socialist despite Marx's false consciousness fantasies.)
As a fourth generation NZ , I have accounts of ancestors who despite passing proficiency the exam in standard 6 , they were prevented from continuing on into secondary school because there were many in the family which did not have the finances to allow all the children to progress , paying for text books etc.
You have your faith in Darwinism Barend , I have mine in God.
There are now quite a few and a growing number of highly educated and intelligent people , some of whom hold positions at prestigious Universities who challenge Darwinism . They are not necessarily Christian.
My distant relative Michael Denton taught at the University of Otago medical school . He wrote books entitled "Darwinism a theory in Crisis''. Last time I looked Otago Uni, was not an accredited kindergarten.
The article was about experiments involving monkeys and making parallels with humanity and socialism .
Anon 117: "I don't know how this got into the god-argument".....um, did you miss the bit about people supposedly being "in the image of God"?
Of course there is no way one could ever 'prove socialism' using sociobiology - indeed one would not be able to 'prove' socialism by any means based on empirical science as it is based on a political ideology.
Gayn...... I mean Anon 239, I do not operate intellectually at the level of 'faith', I am very happy to leave that to your ilk. Even if I did have 'faith' it would not be in Darwinism as I am too well versed in the history of biology and know that classical Darwinism gave rise to the 'neo' version with the amalgamation of natural selection genetics in about 1930. As for your 'faith', the statement you make could apply to any number of superspooks but in the end it comes down to your personal version, so the statement becomes a tautology ("I believe in what I believe in which is my version).
That Denton chap...... um, is he the one who describes himself as an agnostic and "as an evolutionist and ... has rejected biblical creationism" (Wiki)? Yeah, I thought so...... So what anyway? The appeal to authority as an epistemology is just another instance of KG-level reasoning.
BTW I did an experiment with my budgies to 'prove capitalism'. There are 3 budgies in the cage and I put only one food bowl in. That bowl contains enough seed for all three, but one of the budgies guards the bowl and won't let the other two near it. So it's hoarding a resource and that's what capitalists do. If my budgies were good little socialists, they'd follow a roster allocating equal access to the food bowl. So there :-))
Anon@2.39; at least the outcomes of Darwinism are testable; none of your faith-based hooha even comes close to having
a sniff of reality or the ability to make any sort of predictions. As for the citadel of 'wokerism' that is Otago Uni, it is little better than a kindergarten.
Neo Darwinism/ Darwinism is a faith because you believe in it , Barend.
Back to personal attacks on people again.
If they don't agree with you and your 'just so ' stories ' and other explanations for all the difficulties in trying to explain many problems Darwinism/ neo Darwinism have ,they are infantile , lack integrity , and worse.
A book worth reading for those who are concerned about the nature of the Hebrew God , is ' Is God an Ethical Monster ?' which looks into the issues Barend raises from his personal perspective. Some Christians are not afraid of confronting difficulties in their beliefs .Many neo Darwinists seem to have difficulties with being challenged.
Other contributors on this BV site have suggested many of the issues we now face are in fact religious -cultural ones.
Socialism is just one such issue.
I have always, given the social sciences a wide berth since they annoy me in being for me so frequently lacking in rigour and truth but rather bound up in ideology . Our destroyed education system is a victim of this .It is strongly socialist and ideologically based. .
As I have stated before , when updating my computer ,google changed me to anonymous as a default setting .
I have nothing to hide. But avoiding personal verbal abuse from hostile people is something I sometimes wish to do.
Gaynor
>"Neo Darwinism/ Darwinism is a faith because you believe in it"
Sure, babe. The Periodic Table is 'faith' too, then, as is Electromagnetic Theory. If that's the epistemological level you operate at, there is nothing to discuss as you clearly aren't equipped to do so.
Do get that computer problem seen to - or people just might reach their own conclusions.
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