Associate Justice Minister David Seymour “refused” Morning Report’s invitation to be interviewed on RNZ’s Morning Report, the day after the Treaty Principles Bill he is promoting had passed its first reading in Parliament after “a fiery debate and vote”.
No matter. There were plenty of other people all too eager to talk about the bill, the acrimonious debate and the disruptive haka, and the Morning Report team opted to interview a bloke called Jones.
No, not Shane Jones from New Zealand First, who is rarely unwilling to take media questions. Interviewer Ingrid Hipkiss spoke with Carwyn Jones, introducing him as “a Māori law expert”.
Presumably this is the same Carwyn Jones who is Pūkenga Matua (Head Lecturer) for the Ahunga Tikanga programme (Māori Laws and Philosophy) at Te Wānanga o Raukawa.
Hipkins raised the matter of the Māori Party haka which had disrupted the counting of the party vote on the contentious Treaty Principles Bill, prompting Speaker Gerry Brownlee to suspend proceedings.
Jones excused the Māori Party for this ill-tempered and provocative carry-on: its MPs had succumbed to frustration:
The Māori Party waited until the debate had been … until people had had the opportunity to speak, before taking those actions.
And I can understand the frustration when you have a Minister in charge of this bill who has refused to listen to – refused to talk to – Māori, refused to listen to his own officials, and so we have been through all the processes of reasoning, of argument, of laying out the facts…
But under our legislative process the bill has not been through all the processes of reasoning, of argument and of laying out the facts. A key part of that process is the hearing of submissions on the bill to be conducted by the Justice Select Committee.
This has yet to happen.
As to the claim that Seymour has refused to talk to Māori, Point of Order emailed him to ask if this was so.
In response he reminded us that ACT and the coalition government’s cabinet have Māori MPs.
Seymour said:
“The Bill has been through the Cabinet process where it was discussed with Cabinet Ministers, seven of which are Māori. All New Zealanders, including Māori, will have opportunities to provide feedback on the Bill during the select committee process.
“The idea that the Crown has a duty to consult Māori differently from other New Zealanders is based on an incorrect reading of the Treaty by the courts and the public service and which the Treaty Principles Bill aims to address.”
On the other side of the political divide, the organiser of the motor-powered hikoi which is fast descending on Parliament has made plain his disinclination to meet Seymour.
He is Eru Kapa-Kingi, ranked ninth on the Māori Party list at the 2024 general election, whose mother is Mariameno Kapa Kingi, the party’s Te Taitokerau MP.
The reasons he gave for not wanting to talk with Seymour are instructive: he told RNZ’s Morning Report early last week – in effect – that Seymour is unfit to discuss the treaty because he doesn’t speak te reo and/or have a proper understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi’s history.
This insistence that “expertise” is a pre-requisite for discussing the Treaty and its constitutional role emerged when Kapa-Kingi was asked about Seymour’s urge to foster a national conversation about the Treaty.
What do you think and what should this conversation be about?
Kapa-Kingi replied:
It’s less – I think – a conversation and more the need for education. Starting a conversation around understanding what Tiriti of Waitangi says is impossible if you yourself don’t know the history of Tiriti of Waitangi and the truth of what it says, its context, its tupu.
And if you can’t speak Māori, either, it would be very difficult to facilitate such a conversation That’s the danger of everything that’s happening with the Treaty Principles Bill that’s being pushed by the likes of David Seymour and the many ignorant people behind him who have a lot to say about Te Tiriti of Waitangi but don’t know a lot about it.
As Point of Order noted in its report of the interview, by this reasoning many of the country’s 5.2 million people must struggle to engage in the discussion. Data from the 2023 Census shows that more than 200,000 people can hold a conversation in te reo, but that’s just 4.28 per cent of Kiwis.
That number would be further shrunk by Kapa-Kingi’s requirement they know the history of the Treaty.
The RNZ presenter followed up by noting that Seymour says he is open to meeting with the hikoi organisers. Was Kapa-Kingi going to take him up on that?
The answer was blunt:
No. You see it’s not a case of him inviting us to speak to him. We are not at the beck and call of David Seymour or anyone else who doesn’t have the necessary expertise to … lead or facilitate a conversation around Te Tiriti of Waitangi.
In other words, the hikoi organiser is not in the business of debating the Treaty and its constitutional role – certainly not with people who lack “the necessary expertise”. He wants to educate – or indoctrinate – us to equip us with the necessary skills and knowledge to discuss the Treaty and its meaning.
Bob Edlin is a veteran journalist and editor for the Point of Order blog HERE.
Presumably this is the same Carwyn Jones who is Pūkenga Matua (Head Lecturer) for the Ahunga Tikanga programme (Māori Laws and Philosophy) at Te Wānanga o Raukawa.
Hipkins raised the matter of the Māori Party haka which had disrupted the counting of the party vote on the contentious Treaty Principles Bill, prompting Speaker Gerry Brownlee to suspend proceedings.
Jones excused the Māori Party for this ill-tempered and provocative carry-on: its MPs had succumbed to frustration:
The Māori Party waited until the debate had been … until people had had the opportunity to speak, before taking those actions.
And I can understand the frustration when you have a Minister in charge of this bill who has refused to listen to – refused to talk to – Māori, refused to listen to his own officials, and so we have been through all the processes of reasoning, of argument, of laying out the facts…
But under our legislative process the bill has not been through all the processes of reasoning, of argument and of laying out the facts. A key part of that process is the hearing of submissions on the bill to be conducted by the Justice Select Committee.
This has yet to happen.
As to the claim that Seymour has refused to talk to Māori, Point of Order emailed him to ask if this was so.
In response he reminded us that ACT and the coalition government’s cabinet have Māori MPs.
Seymour said:
“The Bill has been through the Cabinet process where it was discussed with Cabinet Ministers, seven of which are Māori. All New Zealanders, including Māori, will have opportunities to provide feedback on the Bill during the select committee process.
“The idea that the Crown has a duty to consult Māori differently from other New Zealanders is based on an incorrect reading of the Treaty by the courts and the public service and which the Treaty Principles Bill aims to address.”
On the other side of the political divide, the organiser of the motor-powered hikoi which is fast descending on Parliament has made plain his disinclination to meet Seymour.
He is Eru Kapa-Kingi, ranked ninth on the Māori Party list at the 2024 general election, whose mother is Mariameno Kapa Kingi, the party’s Te Taitokerau MP.
The reasons he gave for not wanting to talk with Seymour are instructive: he told RNZ’s Morning Report early last week – in effect – that Seymour is unfit to discuss the treaty because he doesn’t speak te reo and/or have a proper understanding of the Treaty of Waitangi’s history.
This insistence that “expertise” is a pre-requisite for discussing the Treaty and its constitutional role emerged when Kapa-Kingi was asked about Seymour’s urge to foster a national conversation about the Treaty.
What do you think and what should this conversation be about?
Kapa-Kingi replied:
It’s less – I think – a conversation and more the need for education. Starting a conversation around understanding what Tiriti of Waitangi says is impossible if you yourself don’t know the history of Tiriti of Waitangi and the truth of what it says, its context, its tupu.
And if you can’t speak Māori, either, it would be very difficult to facilitate such a conversation That’s the danger of everything that’s happening with the Treaty Principles Bill that’s being pushed by the likes of David Seymour and the many ignorant people behind him who have a lot to say about Te Tiriti of Waitangi but don’t know a lot about it.
As Point of Order noted in its report of the interview, by this reasoning many of the country’s 5.2 million people must struggle to engage in the discussion. Data from the 2023 Census shows that more than 200,000 people can hold a conversation in te reo, but that’s just 4.28 per cent of Kiwis.
That number would be further shrunk by Kapa-Kingi’s requirement they know the history of the Treaty.
The RNZ presenter followed up by noting that Seymour says he is open to meeting with the hikoi organisers. Was Kapa-Kingi going to take him up on that?
The answer was blunt:
No. You see it’s not a case of him inviting us to speak to him. We are not at the beck and call of David Seymour or anyone else who doesn’t have the necessary expertise to … lead or facilitate a conversation around Te Tiriti of Waitangi.
In other words, the hikoi organiser is not in the business of debating the Treaty and its constitutional role – certainly not with people who lack “the necessary expertise”. He wants to educate – or indoctrinate – us to equip us with the necessary skills and knowledge to discuss the Treaty and its meaning.
Bob Edlin is a veteran journalist and editor for the Point of Order blog HERE.
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