Dr. David Lillis and Professor Peter Schwerdtfeger: Defending Science – Again!

More on the Listener Letter

We refer to an article by Georgina Stewart, published in the Blog of the American Psychological Association (APA) on 21 August 2023 (Stewart, 2023a). Professor Stewart’s article concerns a debate in New Zealand on the relationship between traditional Māori knowledge and science. This debate has been ongoing for several decades but re-ignited by the well-known Letter to the Listener, signed by seven professors at Auckland University (Clements et al., 2021). Subsequently, the APA has not published a response from us, but nevertheless we believe it important to reply to particular points that were made in her article. For example, she writes:

My specialist topic is the relationship between science and Māori knowledge. This relationship has been discussed sporadically over the years, and the debates have recently been re-animated by the infamous “Listener letter” in which seven senior university professors accused Mātauranga Māori (traditional Māori knowledge) of “subverting” science, despite readily admitting that they knew nothing about Mātauranga Māori, or even what it is.

The Listener Letter does not include either of the words "subverting" or "subvert". Thus, the signatories to that letter made no such claim. Further, in stating that he did not know what Mātauranga Māori is, Professor Corballis clarified later that he was getting at the fact that Mātauranga Māori is not defined clearly, and that different sources define it in different ways; for example, as traditional knowledge or as a belief system that is dynamic and continually updated.

The professors did state that indigenous knowledge is critical for the preservation and perpetuation of culture and local practices, and that it plays key roles in management and policy. They stated that in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what can be defined as science itself. They also said that Indigenous knowledge may indeed help to advance scientific knowledge in some ways, but that it is not science. We believe that these assertions are justified and in fact are very accommodating to indigenous knowledge, especially that which pertains to communities of the distant past.

Ongoing Reactions to the Letter

In the debate that was engendered by the letter, the seven professors were accused unfairly both of racism and downgrading Māori traditional knowledge; for example, Ngata (2021) and McAllister (2022). Other assertions, such as systemic bias and racism in University appointments and promotions, have been shown to be untrue (e.g. Lillis, 2023). In fact, Māori are represented in New Zealand university faculties at approximately the expected level on the basis of prior Ph.D completions, and even more than the expected level at the positions of Lecturer and Senior Lecturer.

Here it is important to remember the precise wording of the original letter:

. . . in the discovery of empirical, universal truths, it falls far short of what we can define as science itself.

This sentence emphasises that it is not indigenous or traditional knowledge itself that falls short of science, but specifically that it is in the discovery of empirical truth that it cannot equal world science.

In another article, Professor Stewart writes:

Signed by seven senior professors at the highest-ranked science university in Aotearoa New Zealand, this letter warned of the threat posed to science by Māori knowledge (Stewart, 2021).

In fact, the letter gave no such warning.

The Dangers of Unchallenged Discourse

Unfortunately, in New Zealand, as in other nations, we see persistent inequalities in socioeconomic, health and education outcomes, despite ongoing efforts on the part of successive governments to rectify the problem through a variety of initiatives. Every New Zealander, especially those in positions of power, must work towards equality of opportunity and closure of gaps in outcomes. However, the promulgation of untruths and false assertions such as those made in Professor Stewart’s articles or those made by Dr. McAllister, do not help us to make progress; nor will attribution of inequalities in the present to systemic bias and racism when most probably bias and racism are no longer significant or may even work in favour of minorities. The danger is that such assertions are not only unfair, but distract us from a much-needed focus on the true causes of inequality, often relating directly to socioeconomic factors.

Various studies demonstrate that bias often favors, rather than disadvantages, minorities. This finding goes back a long way; for example, Bickel et al. (1975), where the authors found that measuring bias is harder than is usually assumed, and that the evidence is sometimes contrary to expectation. More recent studies suggest the same general finding; for example, Stewart-Williams and Halsey (2021).

In the abstract to the Auckland University of Technology School of Science Annual Research Showcase for 2023 (Stewart, 2023b) it is claimed that in the scientific tradition, humankind is seen as having rights to dominate and control nature. As another example:

Educational institutions and their practices valorize commodity extraction today. In the name of knowledge, they train students that the world around them is nothing but a commodity which can be captured, yoked, and tamed by the academy’s in-house conceptual frameworks (Stewart et al., 2020).

Unfortunately, such postmodern and ideological views have been accepted all too readily by the current Labour government, leading in our opinion to a further decline in educational standards in our schools and universities.

Science does not contend that humankind has the right to dominate and control nature, nor do Education institutions train students that the world around them is nothing but a commodity which can be captured, yoked and tamed.

All knowledge-related claims must be contestable and subject to critical thinking and critique, especially claims advanced as a "knowledge system", and those put forward as important for public policy or public education. Anything else constitutes indoctrination rather than education or science.

It is critical that we recognise and confront those things that are wrong in our society and that we aim for equality of opportunity. Certainly, we should also aim for equality of outcomes, where possible, and where it is legitimate and appropriate to do so. However, effective progress can only be made when we conduct discourse that is objective, balanced and fair, especially where otherwise unchallenged ideology can influence policy. Such discourse is timely, considering the current state of our education system, and should be conducted within the tradition of a well-functioning and democratic society.

References

Bickel, J., Hammel, E. A. and O’Connell, J. W. (1975). Sex Bias in Graduate Admissions: Data from Berkeley Measuring bias is harder than is usually assumed, and the evidence is sometimes contrary to expectation. 
223.165.19.203 on Mon, 28 Aug 2023 09:01:33 +00:00

Clements, Kendall; Cooper, Garth; Corballis, Michael; Elliffe, Doug;  Nola, Robert; Rata, Elizabeth, and Werry, John. (2021). In Defence of Science. New Zealand Listener, 31 July 2021. p.4. Also see: 
https://www.fsu.nz/in_defence_of_science_article

Lillis, David. (2023). Allegations of Racism in New Zealand Universities. 
https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2023/03/dr-david-lillis-allegations-of-racism.html

McAllister, Tara. (2022). 50 reasons why there are no Māori in your science department 
Journal of Global Indigeneity, Vol.6, Issue 2, 2022, 1-10.

Ngata, Tina. (2021). Defence of Colonial Racism. 
https://tinangata.com/2021/07/25/defending-colonial-racism/

Tuari Stewart, Georgina; St. Pierre, Elizabeth; Devine, Nesta, and Kirloskar-Steinbachmed, Monika. The End of the Dream: Postmodernism and Qualitative Research. Qualitative Inquiry 00(0), 2020,  1-8.

Stewart, Georgina. (2021). Word weapons? Letters to editors. 
https://pesaagora.com/access-vol-41/word-weapons-letters-to-editors/

Stewart, Georgina. (2023a). Navigating (Living) Philosophy: Traditional Māori Knowledge and Post-qualitative Inquiry. 
https://blog.apaonline.org/2023/08/21/navigating-living-philosophy-traditional-maori-knowledge-and-post-qualitative-inquiry/

Stewart, Georgina Tuari (2023b). Distant Relations: Science and Māori knowledge. Abstract for: Keynote speakers, Auckland University of Technology, School of Science Annual Research Showcase. October 27, 2023. 

Stewart-Williams, S. and Halsey, L. G. (2021). Men, women and STEM: Why the differences and what should be done? European Journal of Personality, 2021, Vol. 35(1) 3–39.

Disclaimer

The opinions expressed here are those of the writers, and not of the universities or other organizations with which they are or were formerly affiliated. We welcome any feedback and acknowledge that some of our post-modernist colleagues may be offended by our views.

David Lillis is a retired researcher who holds degrees in physics and mathematics, worked as a statistician in education, in research evaluation for the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology, and for several years as an academic manager.

Peter Schwerdtfeger is a distinguished professor in theoretical chemistry and physics and Head of the New Zealand Institute for Advanced Study at Massey University. His research is concerned with fundamental aspects of science.